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Fat guy being greedy eating all the desserts, leaving none for the refugees.
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Alexis Teikoku Kouryuuki - Vol. 3 Ch. 14 - The Eidonia Strife 4
- Thread starter MangaDex
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Ah yes, the feared pikemen. What clever tricks will the cavalry use to counter this unfortunate, yet well-established and well-foreshadowed matchup?
Oh... by just brute forcing it, and defeating the entire purpose of pikemen...
What is strategy? What is tactics? What is... tension?
Oh... by just brute forcing it, and defeating the entire purpose of pikemen...
What is strategy? What is tactics? What is... tension?
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Ok then lol.
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@Huichelaar
Tbh the best solution against pikemen were either brute-forcing them (if they were reasonably unskilled, which these were stated to not be) or bringing in the Zweihanders (the dudes with the huge swords, who would cut off piketips and generally disarray the stance by knocking pikes askew). And in this story we explicitly have a dude with a huge sword cutting of the tips of the pikes by riding up and then caracole along the line, disarming them. (In one meaning of the word, we got to see the other meaning at the end of the chapter.)
@icekatze
I went to look up what a lance weighed but couldn't find anything conclusive with the time and effort I was willing to spend. XD
But I did find something that made me recall that this is a "story about a myth", about this "larger than life" man.
It was this picture with the text:
According to the wiki the lowest estimate for the mythical weight is 18 kg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guandao
Tbh the best solution against pikemen were either brute-forcing them (if they were reasonably unskilled, which these were stated to not be) or bringing in the Zweihanders (the dudes with the huge swords, who would cut off piketips and generally disarray the stance by knocking pikes askew). And in this story we explicitly have a dude with a huge sword cutting of the tips of the pikes by riding up and then caracole along the line, disarming them. (In one meaning of the word, we got to see the other meaning at the end of the chapter.)
@icekatze
I went to look up what a lance weighed but couldn't find anything conclusive with the time and effort I was willing to spend. XD
But I did find something that made me recall that this is a "story about a myth", about this "larger than life" man.
It was this picture with the text:
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@Simpleton
It is my understanding that the heavy Guandao were used as a way to show off strength at the training yard, in much the same way as body builders show off with dead lifting, and were not employed in live combat. Even if someone could lift it, they wouldn't be able to swing it in battle without exhausting their arm strength after only a few uses.
Most of the surviving examples of lances that we have are from tournament jousting, and when recreated faithfully, would weigh up to 4 kilograms. Lances used for war may well be heavier, but there's not much space to add extra weight. If they were made more out of iron than wood, there would be surviving examples to find.
Also, even if there were heavier lances in use, it's important to remember that lances were one-time use weapons rather than something the rider would repeatedly swing. Once in close quarters, a polearm was a liability, and a knight would probably switch to something they could swing freely.
It is my understanding that the heavy Guandao were used as a way to show off strength at the training yard, in much the same way as body builders show off with dead lifting, and were not employed in live combat. Even if someone could lift it, they wouldn't be able to swing it in battle without exhausting their arm strength after only a few uses.
Most of the surviving examples of lances that we have are from tournament jousting, and when recreated faithfully, would weigh up to 4 kilograms. Lances used for war may well be heavier, but there's not much space to add extra weight. If they were made more out of iron than wood, there would be surviving examples to find.
Also, even if there were heavier lances in use, it's important to remember that lances were one-time use weapons rather than something the rider would repeatedly swing. Once in close quarters, a polearm was a liability, and a knight would probably switch to something they could swing freely.
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@icekatze
That's interesting because that was just the debate I stumbled into, and it's apparently not true.
A warlance was a lot more like a spear, so fairly short (3-4 meters) but kept in combat. Since half the benefit of fighting on horseback is speed and momentum, the goal was to detach and get a new canter for a new lance strike. And even if this didn't work, a change of grip would allow stabbings to be done also at shorter ranges.
So only if a tight scrum formed despite a wish to detach (meaning the battle is likely already either won or lost) or the lance was broken or lost would a weapon with shorter reach be grabbed. (And if it was merely lost - well, there are tales about warriors being killed while they had dismounted to pick up their spear/lance.)
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About the Guando though - the superheavy are probably just playthings like you said, but apparently martial arts guandos weigh up to 10 kg, so his is "only" about twice as heavy. XD
That's interesting because that was just the debate I stumbled into, and it's apparently not true.
A warlance was a lot more like a spear, so fairly short (3-4 meters) but kept in combat. Since half the benefit of fighting on horseback is speed and momentum, the goal was to detach and get a new canter for a new lance strike. And even if this didn't work, a change of grip would allow stabbings to be done also at shorter ranges.
So only if a tight scrum formed despite a wish to detach (meaning the battle is likely already either won or lost) or the lance was broken or lost would a weapon with shorter reach be grabbed. (And if it was merely lost - well, there are tales about warriors being killed while they had dismounted to pick up their spear/lance.)
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About the Guando though - the superheavy are probably just playthings like you said, but apparently martial arts guandos weigh up to 10 kg, so his is "only" about twice as heavy. XD
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@Simpleton
There were definitely different kinds of lances. And their usage definitely depends on what kind of opposition cavalry were expected to face during that time period.
There's some good info on the construction of lances here. Weight was a constant concern. In the arms race to make lances longer, they even started making them hollow to increase length while keeping the weight the same, even though it could reduce durability.
Lighter lances, mostly pre-1500s were definitely more like spears and javelins than the longer heavier lances that would be held under-arm couched (usually with a built in lance rest/grapper/arret de lance). Against heavy cavalry in plate armor of the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries, they would almost certainly only be used once before needing to be replaced (and relying on the momentum of the charge rather than any stabbing arm strength), to the point where it was often seen as a mark of shame to return with an intact lance in the later middle ages.
When it comes to cavalry charges, the goal was to break up a formation and cause a rout. (Most casualties were inflicted during the rout, rather than in any head to head exchange) If a charge failed to break up a formation they might regroup and try again, but the work of slaughtering fleeing troops wasn't done at speed and didn't require heavy weapons.
In the late middle ages, there are accounts of the Swiss infantry holding out against a reportedly impressive 5 separate charges, after which the cavalry was forced to give up because the horses and men were exhausted.
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But yeah, if this story is supposed to be told from the point of view of an embellishing bard, then it makes sense.
There were definitely different kinds of lances. And their usage definitely depends on what kind of opposition cavalry were expected to face during that time period.
There's some good info on the construction of lances here. Weight was a constant concern. In the arms race to make lances longer, they even started making them hollow to increase length while keeping the weight the same, even though it could reduce durability.
Lighter lances, mostly pre-1500s were definitely more like spears and javelins than the longer heavier lances that would be held under-arm couched (usually with a built in lance rest/grapper/arret de lance). Against heavy cavalry in plate armor of the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries, they would almost certainly only be used once before needing to be replaced (and relying on the momentum of the charge rather than any stabbing arm strength), to the point where it was often seen as a mark of shame to return with an intact lance in the later middle ages.
When it comes to cavalry charges, the goal was to break up a formation and cause a rout. (Most casualties were inflicted during the rout, rather than in any head to head exchange) If a charge failed to break up a formation they might regroup and try again, but the work of slaughtering fleeing troops wasn't done at speed and didn't require heavy weapons.
In the late middle ages, there are accounts of the Swiss infantry holding out against a reportedly impressive 5 separate charges, after which the cavalry was forced to give up because the horses and men were exhausted.
---
But yeah, if this story is supposed to be told from the point of view of an embellishing bard, then it makes sense.
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