Kanojo, Okarishimasu - Vol. 21 Ch. 176 - The Girlfriend and the Tiger’s Den (Part 1)
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@startwindowsnormally
Do you think Kauya would have agreed to be Ruka's "boyfriend" under regular circumstances? Wasn't he blackmailed? He shouldn't have to treat her like a girlfriend because him agreeing to it was to protect Chizuru (essentially). Ruka's sins are called out solely for the reason that she's a burden to Kazuya and the chapters of this series. I don't even understand how anybody can talk about Ruka in such a way that her character sounds good. Kazuya should end the relationship and not have to deal with that shit anymore.
Do you think Kauya would have agreed to be Ruka's "boyfriend" under regular circumstances? Wasn't he blackmailed? He shouldn't have to treat her like a girlfriend because him agreeing to it was to protect Chizuru (essentially). Ruka's sins are called out solely for the reason that she's a burden to Kazuya and the chapters of this series. I don't even understand how anybody can talk about Ruka in such a way that her character sounds good. Kazuya should end the relationship and not have to deal with that shit anymore.
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@RedRadio9 would you really be satisfied with that? nobody wants that to happen wtf..
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@S0viet_Noob
You take a loan out from a bank to help a friend that has fallen on hard times. So you shouldn't have to repay that loan because you borrowed with selfless intentions? Courts going to throw you behind bars so fast you'll have thought you teleported.
Same thing with Ruka, whether or not Kazuya wanted to make an arrangement with Ruka, he did, and is contractually obligated to fulfill his duties therein. Kazuya and Chizuru wanted Ruka's silence and told her they would pay any price for it. Ruka later counters with her price, they make an agreement at Chizuru's discretion.
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You take a loan out from a bank to help a friend that has fallen on hard times. So you shouldn't have to repay that loan because you borrowed with selfless intentions? Courts going to throw you behind bars so fast you'll have thought you teleported.
Same thing with Ruka, whether or not Kazuya wanted to make an arrangement with Ruka, he did, and is contractually obligated to fulfill his duties therein. Kazuya and Chizuru wanted Ruka's silence and told her they would pay any price for it. Ruka later counters with her price, they make an agreement at Chizuru's discretion.
Collapsing for space:
>"[Ruka is] a burden to Kazuya and the chapters of this series"
Ruka challenges Kazuya to confront his short comings, and he does the same thing back to Ruka, among other things I've pointed out in the past (I can provide examples at your request). Once again, she has a place in the plot, just because she's not progressing at the rate you want her to, or in the direction you want her to doesn't mean she's a bad character. You'll defend the nuance progression between Kazuya and Chizuru, but when Ruka has nuance progression, you get mad like nuance isn't par for the course for this series. And yes, if Chizuru wasn't at play, Kazuya definitely would've chosen Ruka, we even have him saying so himself.
I'm not asking people to look at Ruka like a saint or some herald of progress, but rather to stop overlooking the problems of other characters. If you are going to ignore Chizuru's and Kazuya's faults, at least acknowledge you have a bias.
Ruka challenges Kazuya to confront his short comings, and he does the same thing back to Ruka, among other things I've pointed out in the past (I can provide examples at your request). Once again, she has a place in the plot, just because she's not progressing at the rate you want her to, or in the direction you want her to doesn't mean she's a bad character. You'll defend the nuance progression between Kazuya and Chizuru, but when Ruka has nuance progression, you get mad like nuance isn't par for the course for this series. And yes, if Chizuru wasn't at play, Kazuya definitely would've chosen Ruka, we even have him saying so himself.
I'm not asking people to look at Ruka like a saint or some herald of progress, but rather to stop overlooking the problems of other characters. If you are going to ignore Chizuru's and Kazuya's faults, at least acknowledge you have a bias.
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@startwindowsnormally
Are you going to say that to everyone? I'm not saying I want Ruka to become the embodiment of my own desires. Ruka has only changed slightly and you're the only person I've ever seen say otherwise.
What would have happened had Ruka told people Kazuya has a fake relationship? The entire story doesn't happen. At all. Blackmail is a shoddy but unsatisfyingly effective technique to get what you want. Ruka herself isn't bad, how her character is handled and her potential as a romantic partner is, which is what I'm talking about. Ruka is just like a better reoccurring Yaemori from what you're saying.
I "have a bias" solely because I want closure for Ruka and for the main relationship to speed up. Don't you think we've been waiting long enough? It'll take forever. When Kazuya and Chizuru finally have progress, it's either reset by Kazuya or held off by none other than thou (Ruka). When are we gonna reach her story's end? We know that she isn't going to win anyway. She butted into Kazuya's life and whlie she wasn't a burden the whole time, she is annoying and a burden at most times. (Yes, she helped with the movie and pushed Kazuya to challenge himself and shit)
TL
R I don't like Ruka since she is just going to hold up the story. Is that what you wanted me to say?
Are you going to say that to everyone? I'm not saying I want Ruka to become the embodiment of my own desires. Ruka has only changed slightly and you're the only person I've ever seen say otherwise.
What would have happened had Ruka told people Kazuya has a fake relationship? The entire story doesn't happen. At all. Blackmail is a shoddy but unsatisfyingly effective technique to get what you want. Ruka herself isn't bad, how her character is handled and her potential as a romantic partner is, which is what I'm talking about. Ruka is just like a better reoccurring Yaemori from what you're saying.
I "have a bias" solely because I want closure for Ruka and for the main relationship to speed up. Don't you think we've been waiting long enough? It'll take forever. When Kazuya and Chizuru finally have progress, it's either reset by Kazuya or held off by none other than thou (Ruka). When are we gonna reach her story's end? We know that she isn't going to win anyway. She butted into Kazuya's life and whlie she wasn't a burden the whole time, she is annoying and a burden at most times. (Yes, she helped with the movie and pushed Kazuya to challenge himself and shit)
TL
R I don't like Ruka since she is just going to hold up the story. Is that what you wanted me to say?
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Call me ignorant or whatever, I don't care. My patience is lowering day by day.
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Everyone has a bias... the real question is whether people have a blind spot. On average you'd have much better luck getting someone to believe they have a stain somewhere out of sight on the back of their shirt, than you would getting someone to believe they have an emotional blind spot.
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@arimareiji
Unfortunately for my case, that is true.
Let me ask you. Is it me with the bias or @startwindowsnormally ?
Unfortunately for my case, that is true.
Let me ask you. Is it me with the bias or @startwindowsnormally ?
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@S0viet_Noob First reaction: I think we're all‡ biased. Sorry if that sounds like a cop-out... 1) It really is how I feel about it and 2) It's hard to pick out who's biased about what in the conversation between you and @startwindowsnormally (because so much of it is focused on the points each of you wants to make, and so little of it is focused on directly addressing each other's points).
‡ - My bias is thinking Kazuya is almost as good at fooling himself about the root of his noble intentions, as he is at fooling a lot of the readership. I lean toward Ruka not because she's the "best"‡‡... I lean toward it as Kazuya's best chance to eventually become a participant in a relationship (versus glorified parasitism). Training wheels, if you will.
‡‡ - If I believed that "best" could be meaningfully compared, I don't think Ruka would be it. Actually she'd be pretty far down the list, for anyone but another child. (Not a man-child.)
(Edit: Swapped footnote markers, asterisks didn't work as well as I thought.)
‡ - My bias is thinking Kazuya is almost as good at fooling himself about the root of his noble intentions, as he is at fooling a lot of the readership. I lean toward Ruka not because she's the "best"‡‡... I lean toward it as Kazuya's best chance to eventually become a participant in a relationship (versus glorified parasitism). Training wheels, if you will.
‡‡ - If I believed that "best" could be meaningfully compared, I don't think Ruka would be it. Actually she'd be pretty far down the list, for anyone but another child. (Not a man-child.)
(Edit: Swapped footnote markers, asterisks didn't work as well as I thought.)
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@arimareiji Thank you for the response
For Kazuya to actually be in a "relationship" without leeching on/off somebody, then Ruka is most definitely his best bet.
For Kazuya to actually be in a "relationship" without leeching on/off somebody, then Ruka is most definitely his best bet.
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@S0viet_Noob
Having a bias in this situation is okay. You have a bias for Chizuru and that's fine, just don't allow your bias to affect your ability to recognize truths.
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Having a bias in this situation is okay. You have a bias for Chizuru and that's fine, just don't allow your bias to affect your ability to recognize truths.
Collapsed for space:
I have a bias against Mami. At the time of writing, she's a character with zero redeeming qualities, although I don't wish bad upon her, as it's hinted that she lacks agency in her own life.
I can also understand why you'd have a bias against Ruka. You find a character you resonate with, in this example I'll use Chizuru, and go to the forums. These forums are filled with stans on both sides, one side will display a bias for Chizuru, the other will display a bias for Ruka. One thing I will note is that I've seen Ruka stans put up horrendous arguments, if not outright denying and/or ignoring her misdeeds. It makes it easy for anybody to dismantle these weak arguments, and it causes people to associate anybody who supports Ruka with bad arguments, which in turn makes them think of Ruka as a bad character.
I too want everybody to have a happy ending, and I want that ending to be as happy as possible. To this end I agree with you that Reiji has really stretched this series out, as well as mishandled Ruka development. If Ruka's going to lose she should just about be at a point where she can accept her rejection, and leave Kazuya amicably. Unfortunately we seem to still have a ways to go before that happens, we just need to be patient for now.
How would you execute the plot in such a way that fulfills you? no judgement, no debate, just what you want, and how would you like it to get there?
I can also understand why you'd have a bias against Ruka. You find a character you resonate with, in this example I'll use Chizuru, and go to the forums. These forums are filled with stans on both sides, one side will display a bias for Chizuru, the other will display a bias for Ruka. One thing I will note is that I've seen Ruka stans put up horrendous arguments, if not outright denying and/or ignoring her misdeeds. It makes it easy for anybody to dismantle these weak arguments, and it causes people to associate anybody who supports Ruka with bad arguments, which in turn makes them think of Ruka as a bad character.
I too want everybody to have a happy ending, and I want that ending to be as happy as possible. To this end I agree with you that Reiji has really stretched this series out, as well as mishandled Ruka development. If Ruka's going to lose she should just about be at a point where she can accept her rejection, and leave Kazuya amicably. Unfortunately we seem to still have a ways to go before that happens, we just need to be patient for now.
How would you execute the plot in such a way that fulfills you? no judgement, no debate, just what you want, and how would you like it to get there?
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Open question to anyone who watched / read Maison Ikkoku:
Is it just me, or does it seem more and more like the author is "borrowing" elements (including dragging it out too long)?
Is it just me, or does it seem more and more like the author is "borrowing" elements (including dragging it out too long)?
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DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANG CHIZURU! Looking like an actual celebrity, a dress fitted for Red Carpet.
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@arimareiji yes, but no.
It takes some elements, but Kanokari plays them differently.
This arc somewhat somewhat reminds me of
It takes some elements, but Kanokari plays them differently.
This arc somewhat somewhat reminds me of
the halfway arc where Shun passes out due to his phobia to dogs, falls over Kyoko and Yusaku misinterprets it, jumps to conclusions and gets mindbroken causing him to abandon the Ikkoku, give Kozue a short oficial run until Sakamoto gives him a reality check that makes him chase the FMC again.
Especially when spoilers for 177 are out and more or less confirm Umi isn't trustworthy at all and is glaring at Kazuya and Chizuru with a seething face. Something similar to that Ikkoku arc will occur, but played in kanokari style.
Especially when spoilers for 177 are out and more or less confirm Umi isn't trustworthy at all and is glaring at Kazuya and Chizuru with a seething face. Something similar to that Ikkoku arc will occur, but played in kanokari style.
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@WhisCalifa69 Indeed. It's absolutely not a copy of MI, but imo it definitely borrows a handful of elements and uses them in its own style.
For instance, to me Ruka is a combo of Kozue and Yagami. And thank the FSM, the drunken-hijinks gang is considerably toned down (MI's irritated the stuffing out of me). Cool grandma who looks out for MC is definitely used to good effect.
But I hope we're not in for Umi all-but-kidnapping Chizuru and keeping her out all night to pressure her, this MC would probably try to kill himself by jumping off the second floor railing and break his arm.
And I really hope we're not in for an arc where Chizuru and Ruka misunderstand Mami and MC coming out of a love hotel.
But I hope we're not in for Umi all-but-kidnapping Chizuru and keeping her out all night to pressure her, this MC would probably try to kill himself by jumping off the second floor railing and break his arm.
And I really hope we're not in for an arc where Chizuru and Ruka misunderstand Mami and MC coming out of a love hotel.
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