Kare to Kanojo no Sentaku - Vol. 1 Ch. 2

[Blaze_Rod]

@Darklight99 Exactly. That kind of conflict rising from unwilling change is why read these kinds of stories. I'm honestly infuriated every time there is a GB and the character goes "guess I'm a girl now" and doesn't care about it one bit.

As for the mirror scene, my guess is that Haruka feels like she's losing her identity. Everyone treats her differently because she's a girl now despite her protests, and it's aggravating her. If I didn't know better from how this kind of manga usually goes, I'd say that she is unhappy being a girl.

 

[Neushaartje]

@Quelandoris and because you're not getting it, you're invading other people's stories, and bend them to what you want to see that isn't there

@Blaze_Rod my favorite is when they don't care either way. I particularly like A Lazy Guy Woke Up As a Girl One Day which subverts the tropes, with everyone expecting him to care, but his not giving a shit either way as long as he can continue to laze around; I also like My Girlfriend Is a Real Man for this reason.

 

[zips]

we’re in the comment section of a story. people are gonna discuss story elements and wider trends and themes, and connect them to real life context. even for manga. so here’s some analysis.

sure, story-wise doing it By Applied Magic has some merits: you can sidestep the character dealing with gender dysphoria because hey, the magic solves that. You also generate a more relateable story for cis people: they’ll never understand being trans. Maybe empathetically, or as a thing explained to them, but if they _understood_ they’d be trans too. But they can at least relate to “whoa shit my body changed and I gotta deal”. Heck, it’s even a puberty metaphor. And you can sidestep the fact people are monsters to trans people too!

So far so good.

But it’s a little annoying that these stories take place in a world where trans people don’t exist. It’s annoying that the setup is always “my body suddenly doesn’t match the fact I’m a man” and resolves with “I have accepted my body as it is, and also I’m straight now”. You can see the broken moral there. And it’s frustrating that there’s always a plot element of the dude’s attraction that’s always resolved with “well she can give me babies so it’s not gay”.

Why am I complaining on this manga in particular? I guess because usually these stories open with “kyaa! it’s gone! i have boobs!”, move on to the bra shopping episode and then move on to romance angst or 4koma instantly. Instead here we have the cold open on the most fucking relatable trans experience ever: seeing a friend you’ve not seen in a couple years and that whole interaction. I’m hype for this manga, it’s starting strong.

It may go in a totally incompatible direction, sure. But so far, so trans. up to this point in the story, it basically has no effect. Copy and paste “i had to do this, i took hormones” over the magic explanation. What does change is how you lot relate to it, the recoil at the idea. Here’s a story that could very well be trans, but if it was, that’d be unpalatable. Hence this strong reaction to my initial comment.

 

[zips]

“can’t you just let us have our stories where people change gender in a world where nobody is LGBT without commenting on it”?

no

 

[Raloosh]

I'd argue that there's already some pretty good Trans manga out there - not that I've particularly took the time to read them. But besides that, there's certainly nothing wrong with getting your own enjoyment out of it. There's several different groups of people who enjoy GB Manga, one of which being trans people. This has certainly been known, or at least I assume so. However, I think what gets people is the way you worded your initial comment. I get that it was (probably) a joking statement and not meant to, well, really mean anything, but with the internet and lack of being able to hear someone's tone, it instead comes off as being more on the aggressive side. "This story could be good but it's not what I was hoping for so the author's a punk bitch." Hyperbole and exaggeration of course but it can come off as that sort of comment. People typically don't respond well to things like that. Another thing to note is I think people feel like their space or interest is getting invaded, that what they like is trying to be forcibly taken away from them. Is it transphobic to want to read GB manga that don't have trans themes? I dunno but I'd say no. And I feel it's well within people's rights to feel that way.

As for this manga, I don't know what Haruka is feeling or thinking yet. We certainly haven't gotten enough of a look into things. But either way, I'm sure trans people can relate to someone not feeling comfortable in their body, if Haruka still sees herself as male. I don't really think that's a bad thing to have in any GB manga, either.

 

[Darklight99]

Haruka probably was rejected by her family or something after her transformation. She might be trying to save money to have a sex change operation to change back.

 

[zips]

If you know any good trans manga, let me know. God knows stories about surgery are boring as shit. Be nice to have a trans protagonist whose transness is in, but not the entirety of, a story.

My tone is mostly joking, and perhaps I’m from part of the internet where “…you cowards” signals that a bit more strongly than here. Sure I’m objecting to something in the work (even as I’m reading and enjoying it), but it’s not like I’m from the comment section of the last chapter of a romance manga here.

I think it’s reasonable to ask about the context of a story, and what morals it’s communicating, especially as a (so far) fairly representative example of an entire genre. It’s always felt artificial to me that these stories take place in a world where trans people don’t seem to exist, as though the entire appeal is that exact fact. Indeed the reaction here does make me feel as though some of the cis GB readers are pretty invested in GB protagonists not being trans, since I got a response rather than indifference. Which leaves me asking, rather rhetorically, what would be so unappealing about that eventuality.

 

[Neushaartje]

@zips

- Boys Run the Riot
- Sakura-Tyan to Amane-Kun
- Natu no Takenawa
- Himegoto — Uniforms at the Age of Nineteen
- Sazanami Cherry
- Bokura no Hentai
- Love Me for Who I am

None of them are super fluffy though, and I think that's the problem — there are actually far more, these are just the ones that I can remember from heart right now, but it seems what people want is a fluffy story with a transgender protagonist, and obviously the theme of gender dysphoria is inhærently not conducive to fluff; they're all rather serious series where the protagonist isn't very happy.

edit: I will also say this:

But it’s a little annoying that these stories take place in a world where trans people don’t exist. It’s annoying that the setup is always “my body suddenly doesn’t match the fact I’m a man” and resolves with “I have accepted my body as it is, and also I’m straight now”. You can see the broken moral there

There's nothing broken about it: you assume that everyone would find it very difficult to live in the body of the opposite sex — based on what exactly? If you poll people about it you'll find that most say they would be fine with living in the body of the opposite sex and a very large percentage of human beings says that if they would be forced to get a new body they would choose one of the opposite sex just to see what that is like as they are changing anyway.

 

[gallifreyan100]

Ya know if Haruka does hate their body, they're experiencing gender dysphoria (because they are physically female right now), so they are trans. That's the weird thing in these comments, @zips only wants Haruka to be a transgirl slowly coming into her own (I think, right?). But the rest of you guys are insisting Haruka wants to go back, which is fair but that is a trans narrative too. You know that right?

Like, it feels like you guys are getting inflamed about trans stuff but ignoring the fact that this is literally just 'MtF vs FtM' and there IS a trans narrative here regardless. Just, was Haruka trans before (and intentionally brought on the change but is still trying to adapt) or is Haruka trans now (and trying to go back to male)?

 

[Raloosh]

I'd say it depends really. I definitely got it Zips since I know folk who like saying it, but you never know who has and hasn't been exposed to certain trends in language.

As for why people care? Mmm, I'd say because it becomes a different story. Typically a lot of the conflict, as mentioned, comes from the forced change. Whether that's them fighting against it or coming to accept it/realizing it's who they are (or whatever), it is a pretty prevelant running theme in GB. If the main character were simply Trans then either they had hormone therapy and/or surgery or were changed but it was what they wanted anyway. Though, the latter sounds interesting enough. I'd read that.

 

[teruhashiclone]

@trapsarebetter I love how in the comment section of a lot of these genderswap manga, someone will just make a joke about the ML being trans and the entire comment section will swarm them talking about "invading other people's stories" or some other BS. No one in this comment section has insisted that the story change, no one has insisted that they know exactly how the story will go except for you. People are allowed to make jokes, or have theories about future plot points. You don't know any more about the author's intent than anyone else, so who are you to say that they're wrong or that they've misunderstood?

And that goes for a lot of annoying people in this comment section, like all the ones who replied to @zips. You don't have to think the same thing. Just let people think what they want. Damn.

 

[Neushaartje]

@teruhashiclone

No one in this comment section has insisted that the story change

What? the original barrage of “no”-replies was to this comment which very much insisted that the story change.

no one has insisted that they know exactly how the story will go except for you

I have at no point made any proclamation about how the story will go, nor have I said that anyone else has made any proclamation about how the story will go and have I said nothing of the future.

I have criticized this comment this comment for insisting that there are supposedly hidden cues that the character is transgender, which there blatantly aren't.

People are allowed to make jokes, or have theories about future plot points.

And I have criticized no jokes, nor theories about future plot points; I have criticized a demand that the story change, and criticized wishful interpretations of the current chapters.

You don't know any more about the author's intent than anyone else, so who are you to say that they're wrong or that they've misunderstood?

There comes a time when an interpretation is simply ridiculous, and seeing what one wants to see — there is no indication that this story is trying to backdoor transgender-related issues, when it's simply a story about genderswap.

 

[Pandawanka]

To disgress from the current drama a bit...

This artist sometimes has weird angles when drawing necks, huh? When he's leaning over her in the second panel on the train, his neck is at an odd angle, and in the first chapter Haruka's neck also had one weird moment.

 

[zips]

> you assume that everyone would find it very difficult to live in the body of the opposite sex — based on what exactly?

Personal experience? it’s easy to assume you’d be chill with it if it’s not happened to you. We are, alas, not anywhere near a place as a society where being trans is easy, cheap or without severe social consequences, and yet people routinely overcome these things. There’s a reason for that.

Obviously I think it’d be chill if Haruka could be a trans girl instead of magically gender bent, and equally it’d be cool if they played her as a trans guy trying to change back. But that’s not how the genre works so it’s very unlikely. First rule of gender bending: it’s a one way trip.

But again, I’m objecting to the fact that the genre can tell some very trans stories but with huge, neon “but it’s not trans!” disclaimers. If trans people come up in the story, ever, it’ll be to make this disclaimer. And that’s what I don’t get. I know why I care! I never get represented. Why aren’t you lot broadly indifferent to whether she’s trans, though?

 

[Darklight99]

There are plenty of trans manga out there, I personally think that most "traps" are trans despite what people might whine about. But GB should not be considered to be trans, it's more of a metaphor for puberty and change and dealing with physical and mental changes that occur and how to deal with stuff that are not in your control. Stuff like Kanojo ni Naru Hi is probably the best GB manga I've ever read, and one of the best romance period, but it doesn't work as a trans manga at all. Trans manga would actually be the opposite, like how the physical makeup of the body doesn't change their gender identity. That's why I don't understand why people think GB is trans, if anything it's the opposite.

 

[Raloosh]

I'm not sure how else to put it, but the best I can put it into words is that it'd end up not feeling made for me. Which is fine, I'd just read something else, but in the end it's at least a close approximation of why I care.

 

[gallifreyan100]

Btw, @zips I wasn't trying to imply you were wrong, I agree with you and think you're in the right here. Personally, I would prefer that MC is a transgirl because I'm a transgirl and I just like seeing transgirl stuff as a result. That said though, it would be great if there were an FtM angle going on instead where they're trying to go back because there definitely needs to be more FtM representation. I mean the author of Usotsuki Lily wrote a gender bender where the MC was gay, turned into a girl to be straight then turned back and got the guy anyway. So it's possible this manga may go there, it sounds like everyone agree there is a bit more going here than just straightforward GB.

 

[Neushaartje]

@zips

Personal experience? it’s easy to assume you’d be chill with it if it’s not happened to you. We are, alas, not anywhere near a place as a society where being trans is easy, cheap or without severe social consequences, and yet people routinely overcome these things. There’s a reason for that.

You are aware that this is basically saying that you believe that everyone would feel that way simply because you feel that way, right?

But again, I’m objecting to the fact that the genre can tell some very trans stories but with huge, neon “but it’s not trans!” disclaimers. If trans people come up in the story, ever, it’ll be to make this disclaimer. And that’s what I don’t get. I know why I care! I never get represented.

Well, I gave you a list of stories with transgender characters, many of which I personally enjoyed.

Why aren’t you lot broadly indifferent to whether she’s trans, though?

People have explained this — the joy of the genderswap genre for many is seeing the protagonist adjust to the new life. Most genderswap stories start with the gender-swapped protagonist originally wanting to find a way to change back, but eventually conclude with the protagonist accepting it and liking how they are. In that sense, it's much like Brother Bear — would Brother Bear be remotely interesting if Kenai always wanted to be a bear and is really happy to be magically turned into a bear by a spell? No, the story is about Kenai first wanting to become human again, but eventually at the end accepting life as a bear and choosing to remain a bear.

Certainly you can understand that people would be annoyed if Brother Bear threads would be bombarded by those who wish that the story be changed so that Kenai always wanted to be a bear, which would completely erase the entire point of the story.

As for me though, as I said, the one's I enjoy the most are the ones where the swapped protagonist is the one that is indifferent and is like “Meh, I'll try this for a while and see where it goes.”, but those around the protagonist make a big deal about it.

 

[zips]

@trapsarebetter equally, you’re assuming that because you think you’d be okay with it, that’s how everyone would feel. Sure, maybe some people are indifferent and also never take steps to transition, who knows. I’d have said the same as you before I figured out I was trans, myself.

 

[Neushaartje]

@zips

equally, you’re assuming that because you think you’d be okay with it, that’s how everyone would feel.

I never said that “everyone” would; you asserted that it was such a statistically insignificant minority that it would be highly unlikely to show up.

Where did I say “everyone” or made any argument that required “everyone”? I just said it was not unrealistic for it to occur.

Some genderswap stories start with the just-swapped protagonist hating it and wanting to change back; some with the swapped protagonist not caring. I think either is realistic and plausible; your claim was simply that not caring is unrealistic and would never occur.