@SlurpNoodle I see you broke. Here, I'll help you:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning
source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning
Nihonkoku Shoukan - Vol. 3 Ch. 12
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@CheerTheDead
"That was thick. I though WW2 tank is around 1/3 the thickness of Modern tank. I were imagining them to be around 2-3cm thick. Didn’t know they were that heavily armoured.
Any WW2 tank you think the mage can effectively deal with using Fireball? I mean any tank that the mage have the best odd against."
It's not just the thickness of the armor, it's also the material composition. Tank armor in WWII was typically made of a single homogenous material, typically steel, welded, rivted or cast, heat treated to higher strength. As the power of weapons progressively increased, just increasing the amount of armor was not enough. Tanks were getting so heavy they could barely move. Look at Soviet heavy tanks of the 50's to get an idea of where that was headed. Modern tank armor is multiple laminated layers of high strength steel, ceramics and heavy metals like tungsten backed by anti-spall layers of kevlar, and that's just the passive armor. Now there's even more specialized "active" armor types that shoot out explosive jets, small steel plates or even counter-missiles.
Unfortunately, without being able to observe the properties of a "fireball" spell, it would be very difficult to determine how many it would take to take out any tank. Considering the nature of the "fireball" spell being magic, and the varying ways it is depicted in tabletop RPGs and anime/manga/LNs. We'd have to have some sort of baseline of what it does. I've seen "fireball" depicted as everything ranging from a small fist-fized, semi-lethal, anti-personnel spell to large Area of Effect spells capable of incinerating people, structures, even melting stone out to a dozen or more meters. If it's the former, it may take hundreds to even have noticeable affect on a tank. If the latter, it could one-shot a tank.
"That was thick. I though WW2 tank is around 1/3 the thickness of Modern tank. I were imagining them to be around 2-3cm thick. Didn’t know they were that heavily armoured.
Any WW2 tank you think the mage can effectively deal with using Fireball? I mean any tank that the mage have the best odd against."
It's not just the thickness of the armor, it's also the material composition. Tank armor in WWII was typically made of a single homogenous material, typically steel, welded, rivted or cast, heat treated to higher strength. As the power of weapons progressively increased, just increasing the amount of armor was not enough. Tanks were getting so heavy they could barely move. Look at Soviet heavy tanks of the 50's to get an idea of where that was headed. Modern tank armor is multiple laminated layers of high strength steel, ceramics and heavy metals like tungsten backed by anti-spall layers of kevlar, and that's just the passive armor. Now there's even more specialized "active" armor types that shoot out explosive jets, small steel plates or even counter-missiles.
Unfortunately, without being able to observe the properties of a "fireball" spell, it would be very difficult to determine how many it would take to take out any tank. Considering the nature of the "fireball" spell being magic, and the varying ways it is depicted in tabletop RPGs and anime/manga/LNs. We'd have to have some sort of baseline of what it does. I've seen "fireball" depicted as everything ranging from a small fist-fized, semi-lethal, anti-personnel spell to large Area of Effect spells capable of incinerating people, structures, even melting stone out to a dozen or more meters. If it's the former, it may take hundreds to even have noticeable affect on a tank. If the latter, it could one-shot a tank.
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double post
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@SlurpNoodle
Earlier chapter, the sailor on the Destroyer reported that Wyvern fireball may be as strong as napalm bomb. Since Wyvern fire and mage’s fireball are similar in size. I thought they may be similar in strength.
Earlier chapter, the sailor on the Destroyer reported that Wyvern fireball may be as strong as napalm bomb. Since Wyvern fire and mage’s fireball are similar in size. I thought they may be similar in strength.
@SlurpNoodle
Come again? You do realize you need only the temperature, diffusivity, and the BCs to compute the evolution of your system right? Have you ever heard of the heat equation? No? Good. Now go and learn about it - it describes exactly what will happen to your imaginary tank minus the phase transition. Now to add phase transition make this a Stefan problem, or better yet - just make a coarse approximation by reducing the diffusivity and thus ignoring phase transition. You must be high on Dunning-Kruger to believe a 30K+ heat source sustained for 1s won't melt anything. Or you're just looking for attention. Either way, I am not your prof on PDEs - go learn them yourself.
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@SlurpNoodle
French Indochina was formed on 17 October 1887 from Annam, Tonkin, Cochinchina (which together form modern Vietnam) and the Kingdom of Cambodia; Laos was added after the Franco-Siamese War in 1893.
The federation lasted until 21 July 1954.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina
So ~70yrs, a pretty long ass time IMHO
Korea IIRC was under Japan's thumb for like 30 yrs, still quite long, but both of these countries are horribly oppressed by their overlord, not like this manga's Japan *wink wink
TIL I need to quote the entirety of Sun Tzu to ensure ppl don't misunderstand the guy. I suggest you take a little time to at least check the meaning/context of the quote that rub you the wrong way on the interweb next time before replying.
They should have consider other means first before resorting to force, that's the whole point of the frakking quote, but this is a silly Japan wanking manga, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
It's not like NOT killing ppl in another nation is easy, what do I know. Not like they can be a mediator and secure peace btw those countries eh? UN's Peacekeepers are a joke anyway, never work! /s
Do you consider bribery of foreign gov officials not part of "diplomacy"? What about the Beijing Olympic Games? China's Djibouti base? China's Sri Lanka port? The whole Belt & Road Initiative?
WW2 pls.
French Indochina was formed on 17 October 1887 from Annam, Tonkin, Cochinchina (which together form modern Vietnam) and the Kingdom of Cambodia; Laos was added after the Franco-Siamese War in 1893.
The federation lasted until 21 July 1954.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina
So ~70yrs, a pretty long ass time IMHO
Korea IIRC was under Japan's thumb for like 30 yrs, still quite long, but both of these countries are horribly oppressed by their overlord, not like this manga's Japan *wink wink
TIL I need to quote the entirety of Sun Tzu to ensure ppl don't misunderstand the guy. I suggest you take a little time to at least check the meaning/context of the quote that rub you the wrong way on the interweb next time before replying.
They should have consider other means first before resorting to force, that's the whole point of the frakking quote, but this is a silly Japan wanking manga, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
It's not like NOT killing ppl in another nation is easy, what do I know. Not like they can be a mediator and secure peace btw those countries eh? UN's Peacekeepers are a joke anyway, never work! /s
Do you consider bribery of foreign gov officials not part of "diplomacy"? What about the Beijing Olympic Games? China's Djibouti base? China's Sri Lanka port? The whole Belt & Road Initiative?
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@criver
"Come again? You do realize you need only the temperature, diffusivity, and the BCs to compute the evolution of your system right? Have you ever heard of the heat equation? No? Good. Now go and learn about it - it describes exactly what will happen to your imaginary tank minus the phase transition. Now to add phase transition make this a Stefan problem, or better yet - just make a coarse approximation by reducing the diffusivity and thus ignoring phase transition. You must be high on Dunning-Kruger to believe a 30K+ heat source sustained for 1s won't melt anything. Or you're just looking for attention. Either way, I am not your prof on PDEs - go learn them yourself."
Let me guess, you learned it on Wikipedia? You see all these fancy concepts and equations and think you learned something but have no clue how to apply them. You really shouldn't sling terms like Dunning-Kruger around unironically, unless you're applying it to yourself.
So, back on to the topic of your 30K+ Kelvin heat source. What is the energy envelope of this heat source? Is it a single Joule? A fraction of a Joule? A Trillion? You showed enough to understand that there is always a time component in thermodynamic equations. Now apply it, figure out the energy envelope. Phase transitions are not important if you don't have enough energy to even hit any of them.
"Come again? You do realize you need only the temperature, diffusivity, and the BCs to compute the evolution of your system right? Have you ever heard of the heat equation? No? Good. Now go and learn about it - it describes exactly what will happen to your imaginary tank minus the phase transition. Now to add phase transition make this a Stefan problem, or better yet - just make a coarse approximation by reducing the diffusivity and thus ignoring phase transition. You must be high on Dunning-Kruger to believe a 30K+ heat source sustained for 1s won't melt anything. Or you're just looking for attention. Either way, I am not your prof on PDEs - go learn them yourself."
Let me guess, you learned it on Wikipedia? You see all these fancy concepts and equations and think you learned something but have no clue how to apply them. You really shouldn't sling terms like Dunning-Kruger around unironically, unless you're applying it to yourself.
So, back on to the topic of your 30K+ Kelvin heat source. What is the energy envelope of this heat source? Is it a single Joule? A fraction of a Joule? A Trillion? You showed enough to understand that there is always a time component in thermodynamic equations. Now apply it, figure out the energy envelope. Phase transitions are not important if you don't have enough energy to even hit any of them.
@SlurpNoodle
You should have gone past basic thermodynamics though and continued onto fluid dynamics if you wanted to be taken seriously.
Just because you have never touched a PDE in your life doesn't mean that those do not exist or are off-limits.
I do not need to use a coarse heat transfer formula from thermodynamics - because it is a coarse approximation and requires you to compute
things you actually otherwise do not need. Good luck finding the heat transfer coefficient of your alloy. Let's also not forget that it is a function of temperature.
Apply yourself, 20/100 - talk to you next semester when you're done taking your PDEs or fluid dynamics re-exam.
Projection much? Let me guess - this was actually you referring to yourself.
You should have gone past basic thermodynamics though and continued onto fluid dynamics if you wanted to be taken seriously.
Just because you have never touched a PDE in your life doesn't mean that those do not exist or are off-limits.
I do not need to use a coarse heat transfer formula from thermodynamics - because it is a coarse approximation and requires you to compute
things you actually otherwise do not need. Good luck finding the heat transfer coefficient of your alloy. Let's also not forget that it is a function of temperature.
Apply yourself, 20/100 - talk to you next semester when you're done taking your PDEs or fluid dynamics re-exam.
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@Kaiserr92
"WW2 pls."
I've heard everything between $700-$1500 bandied about. But these are prices adjusted for inflation, which is a whole 'nother can of worms. Never use that price if you're trying to recreate something from the past.
"French Indochina was formed on 17 October 1887 from Annam, Tonkin, Cochinchina (which together form modern Vietnam) and the Kingdom of Cambodia; Laos was added after the Franco-Siamese War in 1893.
The federation lasted until 21 July 1954.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina"
Now compare the time Indochina spent as a vassal state of France with the amount of time Vietnam spent as a vassal state of China afterward. You can even count the time Vietnam spent "reunifying". Actually, now that I think about it, you can apply that to the entirety of the Warsaw Pact nations.
"They should have consider other means first before resorting to force, that's the whole point of the frakking quote, but this is a silly Japan wanking manga, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
It's not like NOT killing ppl in another nation is easy, what do I know. Not like they can be a mediator and secure peace btw those countries eh? UN's Peacekeepers are a joke anyway, never work! /s"
When one side has already marched on the other, without warning, taken land, sacked cities, committed atrocities on a mass scale. I think it's a little late for diplomacy. It's a Pearl Harbor + ethnic cleansing event between different nations, not a minor border conflict nor civil war. Your UN Peacekeeper analogy requires an organization on the scale of the UN. Which, btw, does exist in this world, but not that Japan knows yet. BTW, the Korean War is an example of the UN going to war. They haven't done just peacekeeping in the entirety of it's history.
"Do you consider bribery of foreign gov officials not part of "diplomacy"? What about the Beijing Olympic Games? China's Djibouti base? China's Sri Lanka port? The whole Belt & Road Initiative?"
I call that a Destabilization Op. If you want to call that "diplomacy" feel free to to do so, perhaps you have a broader definition of "Diplomacy" than I do. I call the examples you listed above as "unconventional warfare" or the new term "unlimited warfare" that's making the rounds. The whole purpose of diplomacy is to prevent or defuse open warfare, not prep for it. Or maybe that's what they call "Diplomacy, with Chinese characteristics." It does mesh appropriately with Sun Tzu's writings. Treat everyone like they're your enemy.
"WW2 pls."
I've heard everything between $700-$1500 bandied about. But these are prices adjusted for inflation, which is a whole 'nother can of worms. Never use that price if you're trying to recreate something from the past.
"French Indochina was formed on 17 October 1887 from Annam, Tonkin, Cochinchina (which together form modern Vietnam) and the Kingdom of Cambodia; Laos was added after the Franco-Siamese War in 1893.
The federation lasted until 21 July 1954.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina"
Now compare the time Indochina spent as a vassal state of France with the amount of time Vietnam spent as a vassal state of China afterward. You can even count the time Vietnam spent "reunifying". Actually, now that I think about it, you can apply that to the entirety of the Warsaw Pact nations.
"They should have consider other means first before resorting to force, that's the whole point of the frakking quote, but this is a silly Japan wanking manga, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
It's not like NOT killing ppl in another nation is easy, what do I know. Not like they can be a mediator and secure peace btw those countries eh? UN's Peacekeepers are a joke anyway, never work! /s"
When one side has already marched on the other, without warning, taken land, sacked cities, committed atrocities on a mass scale. I think it's a little late for diplomacy. It's a Pearl Harbor + ethnic cleansing event between different nations, not a minor border conflict nor civil war. Your UN Peacekeeper analogy requires an organization on the scale of the UN. Which, btw, does exist in this world, but not that Japan knows yet. BTW, the Korean War is an example of the UN going to war. They haven't done just peacekeeping in the entirety of it's history.
"Do you consider bribery of foreign gov officials not part of "diplomacy"? What about the Beijing Olympic Games? China's Djibouti base? China's Sri Lanka port? The whole Belt & Road Initiative?"
I call that a Destabilization Op. If you want to call that "diplomacy" feel free to to do so, perhaps you have a broader definition of "Diplomacy" than I do. I call the examples you listed above as "unconventional warfare" or the new term "unlimited warfare" that's making the rounds. The whole purpose of diplomacy is to prevent or defuse open warfare, not prep for it. Or maybe that's what they call "Diplomacy, with Chinese characteristics." It does mesh appropriately with Sun Tzu's writings. Treat everyone like they're your enemy.
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@criver
"Projection much? Let me guess - this was actually you referring to yourself.
You should have gone past basic thermodynamics though and continued onto fluid dynamics if you wanted to be taken seriously.
Just because you have never touched a PDE in your life doesn't mean that those do not exist or are off-limits.
I do not need to use a coarse heat transfer formula from thermodynamics - because it is a coarse approximation and requires you to compute
things you actually otherwise do not need. Good luck finding the heat transfer coefficient of your alloy. Let's also not forget that it is a function of temperature.
Apply yourself, 20/100 - talk to you next semester when you're done taking your PDEs or fluid dynamics re-exam."
Yeah, if you want to approach things from the ass end, that's your perogative. Eventually, you'll have to start dealing with energy figures when you apply your formulas to things with mass, y'know real-life things. Good luck on your re-exam, it sounds like you really need it mister Kelvin. ;p
"Projection much? Let me guess - this was actually you referring to yourself.
You should have gone past basic thermodynamics though and continued onto fluid dynamics if you wanted to be taken seriously.
Just because you have never touched a PDE in your life doesn't mean that those do not exist or are off-limits.
I do not need to use a coarse heat transfer formula from thermodynamics - because it is a coarse approximation and requires you to compute
things you actually otherwise do not need. Good luck finding the heat transfer coefficient of your alloy. Let's also not forget that it is a function of temperature.
Apply yourself, 20/100 - talk to you next semester when you're done taking your PDEs or fluid dynamics re-exam."
Yeah, if you want to approach things from the ass end, that's your perogative. Eventually, you'll have to start dealing with energy figures when you apply your formulas to things with mass, y'know real-life things. Good luck on your re-exam, it sounds like you really need it mister Kelvin. ;p
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@elfalas
"On that note, Japan have a history of actually adapting surprisingly fast when they've been severely outmatched,
probably part due to them being less rigid about keeping only "nobles" in power compared to most (not all) other nations/militarypowers in the past.
(Just means it usually ends up costly for their foe aswell, unlike China for example that remained as little to no threat when outmatched.)
Japan have been on the receiving end several times throughout history, wonder how much easier it makes finding actual data on onesided wars for authors."
To be fair, Japan has never really faced an external threat that could wipe them out as a nation and culture. WWII being perhaps the closest event. Being a geographically isolated nation makes keeping their territory and their population subjugated/assimilated a real chore. Just look at their neighbors who have tried. Even now, the only country that could even muster the logistics to attempt it is the US, and the US won't be invading any near-peers any time in the foreseeable future. Though China rattles its sabre at Japan on a near-weekly basis, they really have no real hope of invading and keeping the main islands unless they spend a lot of time, money and effort building up their military capability and a workable amphibious doctrine.
"On that note, Japan have a history of actually adapting surprisingly fast when they've been severely outmatched,
probably part due to them being less rigid about keeping only "nobles" in power compared to most (not all) other nations/militarypowers in the past.
(Just means it usually ends up costly for their foe aswell, unlike China for example that remained as little to no threat when outmatched.)
Japan have been on the receiving end several times throughout history, wonder how much easier it makes finding actual data on onesided wars for authors."
To be fair, Japan has never really faced an external threat that could wipe them out as a nation and culture. WWII being perhaps the closest event. Being a geographically isolated nation makes keeping their territory and their population subjugated/assimilated a real chore. Just look at their neighbors who have tried. Even now, the only country that could even muster the logistics to attempt it is the US, and the US won't be invading any near-peers any time in the foreseeable future. Though China rattles its sabre at Japan on a near-weekly basis, they really have no real hope of invading and keeping the main islands unless they spend a lot of time, money and effort building up their military capability and a workable amphibious doctrine.
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@hermitowl
"Sustained lightning wouldn't do much. most tanks will have Faraday Cage capabilities. Their shells would protect the occupants by diverting all static charge to ground. The big risk of lightning would be the potential to stop the engines from sparking meaning the tanks would just become bunkers to which the operators would just fire from.
The best anti-tank magic would be levitation or telekinetic. If they caster bent the barrels on all arms shut it would leave the tank a sitting duck for direct raiding."
Lightning magic would be pretty much ineffective against vehicles like tanks, but levitation or telekinetic magic is typically considered higher tier magics in these isekai-type stories. Something typically seen used by the heroes or their higher level opponents. A better choice may be earth magics. There's not much a tank can do against a big hole in the ground with no slope to get out or conversly, sharp jagged terrain they can't traverse. Admittedly, it would be pretty defensive, but it's somewhere to start. Adding in water magic to fill in said hole could add additional mayhem to attacking troops and vehicles. butthat's also magics on a scale to change terrain. Dunno if it's been shown if the magic is that advanced in this story.
Either way, until the mages get together and and start thinking like engineers, there's not a lot they can do without knowing better what their magics can do.
"Sustained lightning wouldn't do much. most tanks will have Faraday Cage capabilities. Their shells would protect the occupants by diverting all static charge to ground. The big risk of lightning would be the potential to stop the engines from sparking meaning the tanks would just become bunkers to which the operators would just fire from.
The best anti-tank magic would be levitation or telekinetic. If they caster bent the barrels on all arms shut it would leave the tank a sitting duck for direct raiding."
Lightning magic would be pretty much ineffective against vehicles like tanks, but levitation or telekinetic magic is typically considered higher tier magics in these isekai-type stories. Something typically seen used by the heroes or their higher level opponents. A better choice may be earth magics. There's not much a tank can do against a big hole in the ground with no slope to get out or conversly, sharp jagged terrain they can't traverse. Admittedly, it would be pretty defensive, but it's somewhere to start. Adding in water magic to fill in said hole could add additional mayhem to attacking troops and vehicles. butthat's also magics on a scale to change terrain. Dunno if it's been shown if the magic is that advanced in this story.
Either way, until the mages get together and and start thinking like engineers, there's not a lot they can do without knowing better what their magics can do.
@SlurpNoodle
Imagine being you and not understanding that mass factors in through the diffusivity in the heat equation:
As it happens the heat equation is the one used for "real-life things y'know" and not the coarse thermodynamics approximations that you want to use. The more you type, the worse it gets.
Imagine being you and not understanding that mass factors in through the diffusivity in the heat equation:
As it happens the heat equation is the one used for "real-life things y'know" and not the coarse thermodynamics approximations that you want to use. The more you type, the worse it gets.
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@criver
"Imagine being you and not understanding that mass factors in through the diffusivity in the heat equation:"
Yes, I mention mass several times. Ironic you only pick up on it now. So how much mass is in that tank? How much energy do you need to phase change that mass? how much energy is in your lightning bolt? How much of the lightning bolt's energy can you apply to the tank?
So, what would harm a tank quicker? a plasma cutter at 25K+ Kelvin or Al/Fe thermite that barely reaches 2500 Kelvin?
"Imagine being you and not understanding that mass factors in through the diffusivity in the heat equation:"
Yes, I mention mass several times. Ironic you only pick up on it now. So how much mass is in that tank? How much energy do you need to phase change that mass? how much energy is in your lightning bolt? How much of the lightning bolt's energy can you apply to the tank?
So, what would harm a tank quicker? a plasma cutter at 25K+ Kelvin or Al/Fe thermite that barely reaches 2500 Kelvin?
@SlurpNoodle Find yourself some other buddy - I am tired of educating you. Just because you discovered PDEs yesterday doesn't mean that everyone else did so too.
Not to mention that this argument shouldn't even have come close to PDEs - it's 30-50K Kelvin plasma for a sustained duration versus metal.
Not to mention that this argument shouldn't even have come close to PDEs - it's 30-50K Kelvin plasma for a sustained duration versus metal.
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@criver
"Find yourself some other buddy - I am tired of educating you. Just because you discovered PDEs yesterday doesn't mean that everyone else did so too.
Not to mention that this argument shouldn't even have come close to PDEs - it's 30-50K Kelvin plasma for a sustained duration versus metal.
What do you think a plasma cutter @25K+ Kelvin does? It applies a 25K+ Kelvin heat source over a sustained period versus metal. Even the cheapest $300 model could do it for over 30 seconds.
"Find yourself some other buddy - I am tired of educating you. Just because you discovered PDEs yesterday doesn't mean that everyone else did so too.
Not to mention that this argument shouldn't even have come close to PDEs - it's 30-50K Kelvin plasma for a sustained duration versus metal.
What do you think a plasma cutter @25K+ Kelvin does? It applies a 25K+ Kelvin heat source over a sustained period versus metal. Even the cheapest $300 model could do it for over 30 seconds.
@SlurpNoodle Go read some more about plasma cutters until you manage to figure out the difference between a plasma cutter and lightning. As I said - I am done with educating you.
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@criver
"Go read some more about plasma cutters until you manage to figure out the difference between a plasma cutter and lightning. As I said - I am done with educating you."
I already know the critical differences. You however, still appear to have no clue and you continue to reply with nonsense. So I'll ask you again: Which would do more damage to your tank? The lightning bolt or the plasma cutter?
"Go read some more about plasma cutters until you manage to figure out the difference between a plasma cutter and lightning. As I said - I am done with educating you."
I already know the critical differences. You however, still appear to have no clue and you continue to reply with nonsense. So I'll ask you again: Which would do more damage to your tank? The lightning bolt or the plasma cutter?
