Tenju no Kuni
- Thread starter MangaDex
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Seems interesting
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Well, to be fair for their period, it would be pretty hard for people to get out and meet people when there was little leisure time to go meet and date others. That is especially so when travel outside of one's local area would be uncommon.
Pokari
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Arranged marriages actually work out well about as often as marriages for love do—in fact possibly better on average, I seem to recall. There's a bunch of reasons for this, and it's hard to pin down which are the important ones, but a short version is that:
My point being, they're far from being objectively a universal evil. Heck, from a purely utilitarian viewpoint (i.e. the most happiness for most people) the evidence would seem to suggest they may be superior.
...
None of that matters for the purposes of this series, though! This is a historical piece, it doesn't have to be advocating something just by portraying it. Currently, all signs point to this being a nice story about being thrown together and having things work out. So I'm just going to enjoy that.
Well, that and the gorgeous artwork. Authour-sensei really went to town with the native Tibetan dress and architecture here, I kept staring at the pages...
A.) A matchmaker/one's parents trying to work out who would make a good match won't, on average, do any worse in making a good selection than hormone-driven romance will do.
B.) If you've accepted that you're going to be in an arranged marriage, you generally just try to make the best of it, which tends to just be a pretty good attitude to have for a decently happy and stable marriage.
The only big problem with them is that they go against our cultures' concept of freedom. Which makes them pretty much a non-starter: We value individual freedom right near the top of our list of values as a society (I include myself in this—I could never ever be happy with the idea of an arranged marriage for myself). But, not all cultures are like that.
B.) If you've accepted that you're going to be in an arranged marriage, you generally just try to make the best of it, which tends to just be a pretty good attitude to have for a decently happy and stable marriage.
The only big problem with them is that they go against our cultures' concept of freedom. Which makes them pretty much a non-starter: We value individual freedom right near the top of our list of values as a society (I include myself in this—I could never ever be happy with the idea of an arranged marriage for myself). But, not all cultures are like that.
My point being, they're far from being objectively a universal evil. Heck, from a purely utilitarian viewpoint (i.e. the most happiness for most people) the evidence would seem to suggest they may be superior.
...
None of that matters for the purposes of this series, though! This is a historical piece, it doesn't have to be advocating something just by portraying it. Currently, all signs point to this being a nice story about being thrown together and having things work out. So I'm just going to enjoy that.
Well, that and the gorgeous artwork. Authour-sensei really went to town with the native Tibetan dress and architecture here, I kept staring at the pages...
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@Pokari
I would like to add the caveat that in a lot of cultures where arranged marriage is acceptable, the idea of divorce is frowned upon, to say the least. The nature of the institution of marriage isn't the same throughout the world; equating marriage in a place like America where there is some semblance of gender equality with a place like Somalia where little girls as young as 13 are married off to men at least twice their age is ignorance at best.
Judging arranged marriages on the overall result of less divorce (which isn't even an option for many marriages in third world countries) or "happiness" of spouses in inescapable situations is first world naivete at its finest. Marriages where spouses don't even have a choice in who they spend the rest of their lives are inherently flawed and archaic. Removing choice from a life-changing decision and assuming everything will work out because of a "well it's not like I can do anything about it" mentality is laughable. There's nothing utilitarian about it.
I would like to add the caveat that in a lot of cultures where arranged marriage is acceptable, the idea of divorce is frowned upon, to say the least. The nature of the institution of marriage isn't the same throughout the world; equating marriage in a place like America where there is some semblance of gender equality with a place like Somalia where little girls as young as 13 are married off to men at least twice their age is ignorance at best.
Judging arranged marriages on the overall result of less divorce (which isn't even an option for many marriages in third world countries) or "happiness" of spouses in inescapable situations is first world naivete at its finest. Marriages where spouses don't even have a choice in who they spend the rest of their lives are inherently flawed and archaic. Removing choice from a life-changing decision and assuming everything will work out because of a "well it's not like I can do anything about it" mentality is laughable. There's nothing utilitarian about it.
Pokari
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@Kuroiikawa:
I'm aware of these things.
However,
A.) In part, I'm basing my statements off things I've heard about arranged marriages from people in places like America (in immigrant families, of course).
B.) I never said all arranged marriages were humane. I mostly just said the practice isn't necessarily in and of itself a prime evil.
C.) I'm putting more stock in cultural relativity than you are. While I do in fact feel that we should impose some of our values on other societies (like gender equality, for instance), I don't want to fall too much into the trap of, "our way is the right way," either.
But, well, this is getting pretty far off-topic. I'm always up for a good philosophical debate, but I don't really want to pollute the comments of such a lovely manga with my own petty bickering.
I'm aware of these things.
However,
A.) In part, I'm basing my statements off things I've heard about arranged marriages from people in places like America (in immigrant families, of course).
B.) I never said all arranged marriages were humane. I mostly just said the practice isn't necessarily in and of itself a prime evil.
C.) I'm putting more stock in cultural relativity than you are. While I do in fact feel that we should impose some of our values on other societies (like gender equality, for instance), I don't want to fall too much into the trap of, "our way is the right way," either.
At particular issue here is the exact value of freedom, versus other tangible benefits. We put a great deal of stock in freedom now, but, for instance, even some of the relatively privileged early settlers in America (i.e. white males, not criminals) thought it was okay to sell themselves into indentured servitude (i.e. temporary slavery) to get a ticket across the ocean for a slightly better life—something that would be unthinkable in our ferociously "freedom-loving countries" of the present.
But, well, this is getting pretty far off-topic. I'm always up for a good philosophical debate, but I don't really want to pollute the comments of such a lovely manga with my own petty bickering.
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What... What is this sweet vanilla? IT'S SO FLUFFY!!!!!
Pokari
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@TheDefend:
If we're going to talk about age, on the other hand, the thing that's interesting for me, with historical fiction like this, is the reminder of how much faster we used to live our lives. Such as, this kid is 13. And he's being treated more or less as an adult. And acting more or less like one, too. That's just how we used to do things. Whereas recently, we're getting to the point where a lot of people kind of stay children until their mid twenties or later. (I'm not saying this is bad, and I'm not saying it's good, either. Just interesting—almost as if we elastically adjust our life plans for our life expectancy, or some such)
@SanitaryCockroach:
Isn't it though!? Reading this is so calming ~w~
To the best of my knowledge (which I admittedly don't completely trust on this subject because a lot of stuff did get whitewashed, and so my "knowledge" may just be dead wrong), not many of the original European immigrants were people of colour. Unless you call people brought in by the chattel slave trade "immigrants," but that's yet another story.
Aloe, remember, even by the 1900's America was racist about those "sneaking Irish" immigrants: Everyone who's white getting a "free pass" is actually a pretty recent development... To be honest I don't know whether to call it an improvement or a degredation.
Plenty of them did have debts, though. I mean, if you're not having financial trouble, would you move across the ocean (when that takes several months and has a nontrivial fatality rate, no less) just to find better prospects? Especially in an era where most people didn't move around much.
Aloe, remember, even by the 1900's America was racist about those "sneaking Irish" immigrants: Everyone who's white getting a "free pass" is actually a pretty recent development... To be honest I don't know whether to call it an improvement or a degredation.
Plenty of them did have debts, though. I mean, if you're not having financial trouble, would you move across the ocean (when that takes several months and has a nontrivial fatality rate, no less) just to find better prospects? Especially in an era where most people didn't move around much.
If we're going to talk about age, on the other hand, the thing that's interesting for me, with historical fiction like this, is the reminder of how much faster we used to live our lives. Such as, this kid is 13. And he's being treated more or less as an adult. And acting more or less like one, too. That's just how we used to do things. Whereas recently, we're getting to the point where a lot of people kind of stay children until their mid twenties or later. (I'm not saying this is bad, and I'm not saying it's good, either. Just interesting—almost as if we elastically adjust our life plans for our life expectancy, or some such)
@SanitaryCockroach:
Isn't it though!? Reading this is so calming ~w~
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