The Day the Magpie Cries
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@ZeonII South Korea became one of the tigers of Asia, a great economic power and a highly developed country because they adopted a whole lot of things from the West. I bet the MC is a hypocrite who's exceedingly conveniently selective about the things that are "own culture" and that aren't. Kind of like 99% of all activists in the world want to ban only things other people enjoy, not those they themselves enjoy.
That being said, she would only need to get the school drop the whole uniform requirement and it would be a problem solved. If the only rule was that the clothes should be decent and suitable for an academic institution, by teachers' judgement, she could wear her traditional clothes, just like everyone would be able to wear their own preferred clothes, as long as they weren't too weird or indecent. It works in most Western countries.
That being said, she would only need to get the school drop the whole uniform requirement and it would be a problem solved. If the only rule was that the clothes should be decent and suitable for an academic institution, by teachers' judgement, she could wear her traditional clothes, just like everyone would be able to wear their own preferred clothes, as long as they weren't too weird or indecent. It works in most Western countries.
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@givemersspls Well, concerning activists, I also counted the Internet and other sunday activists in the count. Not only the hardcore ones, which are that 1% who strictly live as they preach. Why I mentioned it at all, is that I'm sure the MC wouldn't want to let go of all the good things from the West, she only wants to stick to the specific Korean things that she finds nice and dandy.
Anyway, I'm not actually against preserving cultural heritage, I'm for it, which is these days a very common sentiment in Europe. However, when a single student starts to demand the whole school needs to change to something more inconvenient for the sake of culture, it's not anymore really for the sake of culture but for her own tastes. That why I said her goal should have been to free the dress code entirely, not just replace one strict rule with another.
What I meant that great many people are very willing to ban things other people enjoy, but wouldn't let go of their own. Like guns, which are important to many (most of whom are ordinary people, not criminals). But let's ask those activists if they are ready to have their most important hobbies made illegal in exchange for removing private ownership of guns. Like let's make private ownership of cameras illegal as well! I also dislike activists that want to ban a profession summarily, but wouldn't offer any advice on how the people without jobs would then keep living. For example fur farming. Or those that want to radically reduce meat and milk consumption for the sake of fighting the climate change.
Anyway, I'm not actually against preserving cultural heritage, I'm for it, which is these days a very common sentiment in Europe. However, when a single student starts to demand the whole school needs to change to something more inconvenient for the sake of culture, it's not anymore really for the sake of culture but for her own tastes. That why I said her goal should have been to free the dress code entirely, not just replace one strict rule with another.
What I meant that great many people are very willing to ban things other people enjoy, but wouldn't let go of their own. Like guns, which are important to many (most of whom are ordinary people, not criminals). But let's ask those activists if they are ready to have their most important hobbies made illegal in exchange for removing private ownership of guns. Like let's make private ownership of cameras illegal as well! I also dislike activists that want to ban a profession summarily, but wouldn't offer any advice on how the people without jobs would then keep living. For example fur farming. Or those that want to radically reduce meat and milk consumption for the sake of fighting the climate change.
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@givemersspls The school uniforms follow the standard, traditional Western suit code, more or less, which is present in business, politics, military, academics, etc, all over the world, with varying degrees of penetration (like in Middle East, for example, it has less penetration than in Japan, but it's still very much present in the Middle East as well). South Korea relies highly on exporting for its economy, so it's understandable why they would try to fit in in the larger business world. It simply is a country with a high degree of Western influence because it was the smoothest way to break through back when the world was even more Western controlled than today. They didn't really become what they are today only relying on their own cultural heritage. In the end the Western sort of suit is already so universal that I'm not sure if it can be called truly Western anymore. If you started counting random people in Japan and my European home country, you'd find vastly more people in formal business suits in Japan, relatively, because their general dress code is stiffer. It's kind of difficult to even imagine Tokyo anymore without so many men in business suits. Might be the same for Seoul.
Why would I talk with such activists? They have always had plenty of room to express their opinions in the media. I have never heard them explain what the affected people should be doing instead, not as far as hobbies and jobs go. Food is a little different since they say people should eat less meat and eat more vegetables and other plants, so there's the alternative.
Why would I talk with such activists? They have always had plenty of room to express their opinions in the media. I have never heard them explain what the affected people should be doing instead, not as far as hobbies and jobs go. Food is a little different since they say people should eat less meat and eat more vegetables and other plants, so there's the alternative.
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@givemersspls School isn't the whole life. When they leave school, they will don business suits. In the end the Western influence is so deep that I don't believe the schools even feel like they are enforcing Western culture on the students by having them wear those "Western" uniforms (if you even can call them Western). Most schools in the West don't even force students to wear uniforms, so that whole thing might be, these days, more Asian than Western. In fact I bet many geezers would feel it degenerate Western influence if students could wear whatever they wanted at school.
Do you often see Korean regular businessmen and politicians wearing national costumes at work and especially when dealing with international partners? Of course there would be special occasions where that could happen, but the same thing could happen also in the West where different parts of countries have their own folk costumes. I mentioned Middle East earlier because there it actually oft happens, even if we aren't talking about special anti-Western folks.
Do you often see Korean regular businessmen and politicians wearing national costumes at work and especially when dealing with international partners? Of course there would be special occasions where that could happen, but the same thing could happen also in the West where different parts of countries have their own folk costumes. I mentioned Middle East earlier because there it actually oft happens, even if we aren't talking about special anti-Western folks.
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@givemersspls Weren't we talking about this manga where the MC looks down on what she believes is an offensive Western uniform and wants to replace it with an authentic Korean folk costume? My point was that she's unreasonable by demanding that everybody abandons the traditional, modern school uniform in favour of her personal tastes. I also questioned how honest she is by only concentrating on the uniform and not rejecting all the Western influence in Korea in general (and thus reject the whole modern Korean society). I'm sure you know your own stance.
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@givemersspls Perhaps I just interpreted it that way, when she said the Korean national identity is disappearing, replaced by Western influences, which can lead into social problems (might be true, for all I know). After such a grand speech she proceeds to suggest during the assembly that the regular school uniform should be replaced by hanboks.
To be realistic, you are correct: It's not like a high school student even could do anything about the big picture. Later she could try to become a populistic, nationalistic, firebrand politician preaching for isolation and return to the roots, but as long as she's just a student, there are very few things she could ever achieve. In fact by becoming a social media/video star she would have far more influence. Youtube/Twitter/Facebook are not possible, however, since they are Western.
In any case I never wrote the original comment expecting a grand discussion. I didn't pay so much attention to it that it would stand scrutiny for tangential issues.
To be realistic, you are correct: It's not like a high school student even could do anything about the big picture. Later she could try to become a populistic, nationalistic, firebrand politician preaching for isolation and return to the roots, but as long as she's just a student, there are very few things she could ever achieve. In fact by becoming a social media/video star she would have far more influence. Youtube/Twitter/Facebook are not possible, however, since they are Western.
In any case I never wrote the original comment expecting a grand discussion. I didn't pay so much attention to it that it would stand scrutiny for tangential issues.
Pokari
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...The fact that we wear clothes at all (indoors, in air-conditioned environments!) is itself pretty much also just tradition. Humans put a lot of stock in the importance of such things, arbitrarily; it's seemingly unavoidable.
Why modern western clothes should be an "advancement" over traditional eastern ones is baffling to me, unless we're talking high-utility stuff like sturdy cargo pants or something. You could make a vague argument for ease-of-use, for the guys at least, but then we really still need to ditch the ties and such...
theilikepie
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This manga sounds very propaganda-ey.Repect the past, remember it but dont let it dictate your future. Westernization can coexist with tradition. Her words in the begging sounded very similar to those that want an ethnostate
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I don’t really understand but I believe in freedom of speech.
I believe you all make good points. Especially @givemersspls makes a lot of sense. Trying to preserve tradition is a good thing and not forcing anyone.
But I agree with theilikepie@ as well. Coexist with tradition. Not forgetting cultural heritage is a good thing, it’s what makes them unique.
Everyone should just dress as they want too as long it isn’t bad
I believe you all make good points. Especially @givemersspls makes a lot of sense. Trying to preserve tradition is a good thing and not forcing anyone.
But I agree with theilikepie@ as well. Coexist with tradition. Not forgetting cultural heritage is a good thing, it’s what makes them unique.
Everyone should just dress as they want too as long it isn’t bad
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"Everyone Else Should Concede to Me and Align With My Values Because I'm Entitled to That - The Manhwa"
...Nah. Fuck that. You can take your woke Twitter/Tumblr progressivism and SJW horseshit with you.
Adding in a dash of "BEST KOREA" ethnonationalism (...if this was a comic about white students looking down on foreign or ethnic things, I have a feeling many, many more people would be very, very wary of this) and anti-west sentiment and I want to steer clear of this with a 10-foot-fucking-pole.
Seriously, if it was just a manhwa about a girl from a traditionalist family that wanted to keep traditional culture alive for new generations or something (and this isn't new, either, series like Hanayamata did this very well while not being overbearing asshats about culture or anti-west), I wouldn't mind at all. But this anti-west sentiment combined with the entitlement? Fuck no. This is the progressive cancer that the west has been dealing with for awhile now, and it's no less cancerous when it's eastern.
...Nah. Fuck that. You can take your woke Twitter/Tumblr progressivism and SJW horseshit with you.
Adding in a dash of "BEST KOREA" ethnonationalism (...if this was a comic about white students looking down on foreign or ethnic things, I have a feeling many, many more people would be very, very wary of this) and anti-west sentiment and I want to steer clear of this with a 10-foot-fucking-pole.
Seriously, if it was just a manhwa about a girl from a traditionalist family that wanted to keep traditional culture alive for new generations or something (and this isn't new, either, series like Hanayamata did this very well while not being overbearing asshats about culture or anti-west), I wouldn't mind at all. But this anti-west sentiment combined with the entitlement? Fuck no. This is the progressive cancer that the west has been dealing with for awhile now, and it's no less cancerous when it's eastern.
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@definitionofinsanity
I'm confused, how is trying to keep traditions progressive? Isn't it a conservative stance, by the very meaning of the word?
I'm confused, how is trying to keep traditions progressive? Isn't it a conservative stance, by the very meaning of the word?
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@lumpur
No, not at all. The two are not mutually inclusive. And her traditionalism isn't what makes her progressive (nor did I ever state that - in fact I gave examples of how traditional values can be done just fine and without "Woke"ness), but her mindset. She isn't pushing traditionalism, she's pushing her values onto other people and doing so forcefully. THAT is modern progressivism in a nutshell. Imagine I'm from a foreign region, perhaps an area with a lot of oil and sand. Say I come to your school and say, hey, I love my tradition - would you like to learn about it or share it with me? That's not progressivism despite being a traditionalist. Let's say it's the same scenario and this time, however, I say you should take part in my tradition and if you don't you're a racist. That is progressive SJW horseshit. And that's similar to what this girl is doing. All she's thinking about is herself and her values and she's superimposing them onto everyone else and doing so with an agenda (and if her comment about the west is any indication, it's a slight political and nationalist one at that, albeit likely through the author self-inserting).
To showcase it to you, feminism is usually considered progressive, correct? Would first or second wave feminism ideals be viewed as progressive today? Hell no. And you'd be surprised how many conservative (like, politically conservative) self-identifying feminists there are out there. Do you know why? It's because 3rd wave feminists like to get on Twitter and Tumblr and do fucking batshit nutty things like start #KIllAllMen and some women think it's their right (HOW DARE THEY?!) to choose their own path and lifestyle... even if that means a conservative/traditional one. To be crude, it's like a new age parallel of someone being called an "Uncle Tom" because you aren't towing the fringe (and vocal) movement's party line.
If the chick in this manga was just into traditionalist clothes and wanted to get other people excited and interested in that, I would dare say I'd actually be interested in this manhwa simply because culture shock and exchange can be interesting. But this girl wants to force ideals and values on people and has political/cultural agendas. And I've seen enough of that bullshit in the real world the last 5+ years that seeing it in entertainment is like legit fucking cancer. If I wanted to see that shit, I'd visit Twitter. At least then there'd be the occasional meme that might be worth it.
No, not at all. The two are not mutually inclusive. And her traditionalism isn't what makes her progressive (nor did I ever state that - in fact I gave examples of how traditional values can be done just fine and without "Woke"ness), but her mindset. She isn't pushing traditionalism, she's pushing her values onto other people and doing so forcefully. THAT is modern progressivism in a nutshell. Imagine I'm from a foreign region, perhaps an area with a lot of oil and sand. Say I come to your school and say, hey, I love my tradition - would you like to learn about it or share it with me? That's not progressivism despite being a traditionalist. Let's say it's the same scenario and this time, however, I say you should take part in my tradition and if you don't you're a racist. That is progressive SJW horseshit. And that's similar to what this girl is doing. All she's thinking about is herself and her values and she's superimposing them onto everyone else and doing so with an agenda (and if her comment about the west is any indication, it's a slight political and nationalist one at that, albeit likely through the author self-inserting).
To showcase it to you, feminism is usually considered progressive, correct? Would first or second wave feminism ideals be viewed as progressive today? Hell no. And you'd be surprised how many conservative (like, politically conservative) self-identifying feminists there are out there. Do you know why? It's because 3rd wave feminists like to get on Twitter and Tumblr and do fucking batshit nutty things like start #KIllAllMen and some women think it's their right (HOW DARE THEY?!) to choose their own path and lifestyle... even if that means a conservative/traditional one. To be crude, it's like a new age parallel of someone being called an "Uncle Tom" because you aren't towing the fringe (and vocal) movement's party line.
If the chick in this manga was just into traditionalist clothes and wanted to get other people excited and interested in that, I would dare say I'd actually be interested in this manhwa simply because culture shock and exchange can be interesting. But this girl wants to force ideals and values on people and has political/cultural agendas. And I've seen enough of that bullshit in the real world the last 5+ years that seeing it in entertainment is like legit fucking cancer. If I wanted to see that shit, I'd visit Twitter. At least then there'd be the occasional meme that might be worth it.
